MJFChat: Learn to Live: Navigating Choppy Career Waters

We’re doing a twice-monthly interview show on Petri.com that is dedicated to covering topics of interest to our tech-professional audience. We have branded this show “MJFChat.”

In my role as Petri’s Community Magnate, I will be interviewing a variety of IT-savvy technology folks. Some of these will be Petri contributors; some will be tech-company employees; some will be IT pros. We will be tackling various subject areas in the form of 30-minute audio interviews. I will be asking the questions, the bulk of which we’re hoping will come from you, our Petri.com community of readers.

We will ask for questions a week ahead of each chat. Readers can submit questions via Twitter, Instagram, Facebook and/or LinkedIn using the #AskMJF hashtag. Once the interviews are completed, we will post the audio and associated transcript in the forums for readers to digest at their leisure. (By the way, did you know MJFChats are now available in podcast form? Go here for MJF Chat on Spotify; here for Apple Podcasts on iTunes; and here for Google Play.)

Our next MJFChat, scheduled for August 10, is all about staying motivated to keep learning. My special guest is Thurrott.com’s Majordomo Paul Thurrott. We want you to submit any and all of your questions for Paul ahead of our chat, which we are holding live on Twitter. Paul will share tips and tricks that could help IT pros navigate the ongoing choppy career waters.

If you know someone you’d like to see interviewed on the MJFChat show, including yourself, send me a note at [email protected] (Let me know why you think this person would be an awesome guest and what topics you’d like to see covered.) We’ll take things from there….

Transcript:

Mary Jo Foley (00:00):
My special guest today is a long time collaborator, former enemy, and now friend Paul Thurrott, who is the majordomo, I like that title, of Thurrott.com. So Paul, thank you for joining me today on this live chat.

Paul Thurrott (00:17):
Thank you for having me. I feel like I don’t talk to you enough every week.

Mary Jo Foley (00:20):
No, I agree. We need to talk and live in front of a live audience.

Paul Thurrott (00:25):
Yes, yes. As all conversations should be.

Mary Jo Foley (00:28):
Exactly. So I had this idea when I was thinking about this MJF Chat about something on learning, but not just like a list of sites, you can go to learn more about various technologies, which I feel like is kind of being done in many places right now because of working remotely and the pandemic. But I think you have some interesting perspectives on getting motivated and staying motivated to learn. So that’s why I wanted to bring you on this chat.

Paul Thurrott (00:58):
Okay. I’ve certainly have experienced a lack of motivation at the time, during the pandemic for sure. But yeah, I feel very strongly about learning, so.

Mary Jo Foley (01:08):
Okay. So I wanted to start out the chat by asking you to tell a story I’ve heard you tell a couple of times, but I think it’s a good introduction. I have heard you tell a story about being at some IT Pro conference, where somebody came up and asked you for advice, career advice, and you had kind of a startling answer for this guy. And I think it’s a good kind of opening statement on why we’re doing this chat. So would you mind retelling that?

Paul Thurrott (01:34):
I assume you’re, I think you’re referring to the it was Tech Ed right before Ignite, as you know, and there were a couple of years in a row there where my organization at the time, which was Windows,IT Pro the former NT Magazine was holding preconference, pre-con sessions for Microsoft. Right. So I don’t remember the exact timing, but if the show started on Monday, maybe this was a Sunday. And I remember, you know, I don’t remember who did, who assigned, who to what, but I, was given the assignment of handling the IT Pro room. And I remember Mike Otey, our database guy got the developer room and I was really upset about that because, at this time the cloud was coming, right. This is early days. There was still a lot of pushback against the cloud.

Paul Thurrott (02:18):
I don’t remember exactly what year this was. I apologize. But you know, at this time there were still a lot of people that were never doing this. We’re never going to the cloud. You know, we still thought at that time, that email was the low hanging fruit. Over time, we sort of evolve that into a storage, but, you know, from a developer perspective, you’re telling me I get to rewrite all my applications for a new environment. You know, as I joke with Mike Otey at the time, I said, it was like a conga room in your line, you guys are dancing around the tables. You know, meanwhile the IT Pro room, it was like a funeral, you know? And it was like this increasingly contentious series of questions from people who rightfully so, were worried about their jobs. And we finally had a guy stand up and say, you mean to tell me that my final act as an Exchange administrator is going to be to complete the migration of our environment, to the cloud, to Office 365, I think at the time, and then, I’m out of a job.

Paul Thurrott (03:16):
And my answer was yes, but hold on a second. And I think that was an eye opening interchange for me, because what it showed me was that we’re in a room full of people and you know, you and I, and we go to these conferences and we interact with this crowd. It’s our, these are our people, this is our community. And we all got involved in personal technology at one point or another with the understanding that this is the most dynamic business on earth, that things are always changing. And in this guy’s case in particular, and you’ve got to kind of remember the timeframe, which of course you can’t remember because I don’t remember what year it was, but there was, you know, Exchange was this on-premises email and collaboration product Microsoft had, obviously still has. And it had gone through a series of upgrades, you know Office or Exchange 2000, 2003, 2007.

Paul Thurrott (04:05):
So probably somewhere in that timeframe. So for a while it was, it was very stable. You know, organizations would maybe choose to skip a version, but they always knew they were gonna move forward to some future version of Exchange. And that was their job, you know, whereas when they had entered the market, when they had come into this industry, they probably really weren’t sure what they were going to do or where they were going to end up. Some people did end up in Exchange. Some people ended up in SQL Server. Some people ended up in SharePoint, you know, whatever it might’ve been, but they got comfortable, you know, and I think they stopped learning basically. And that was kind of eye opening to me because not as a formal process of any kind, I’m just a person, but I mean, I’ve always really considered it important to always be learning, you know?

Paul Thurrott (04:50):
And it’s kind of like swimming is to a shark, you know, if you’re not learning, you’re not living, you know? And I, you know, unfortunately in this case, I mean, there were people who did lose jobs or had to make job transitions because of this cloud thing that was happening at the time and it’s still happening. But hopefully what came out of that was that people in his position grew to understand the importance of continual learning and that they should always be prepared to be the guy or the person, the gal or guy, whatever, to you know, raise their hand, say, I can do that. You know, I’m not afraid of that. I’ve learned about that or whatever it might be.

Mary Jo Foley (05:28):
I know. I feel like we both, even though we’re not, IT Pros ourselves. We have a lot of experience in having to adapt in our careers, our own personal careers. Right. I mean, both, I don’t know if you train the way I did, but, when I started out learning how to be a journalist, I always assumed it would be one way it would be print. Right. And that was the way it was going to be. Right. So it’s scary sometimes when you are confronted with this new reality and it’s like, okay, literally adapt or you’re going away. Like, you’re gonna just have to pick an entirely different field. Right. That’s your choice. So, yeah. I was going to ask you, so once you finally kind of get over your fear or not get over it, but at least kind of embrace it, how do you take the next step? Right. For me it was like, okay. So I can’t just do print. I’m going to have to do sometimes video. And I’m sometimes going to have to do podcasts and all these things I don’t want to do. Like, how did you in your career like say, okay, I’m embracing change and let’s go, how did you make yourself make the jump?

Paul Thurrott (06:38):
Yeah, like I said, it wasn’t a formal thing. It wasn’t like I sat down one day and I said, I have to decide, but I can go back to before I was in this industry, when I was even in high school, I was kind of a decorated artist. I won all these awards. I won the Boston Globe, Scholastic art award. I was going to art school, you know, and when I arrived in art school, I wasn’t there more than a few months before I realized this is the fast path to never making any money. I need to do something different. And the technology stuff was something I had always been interested in as a hobby. And I think I discounted it as a career because I was so clearly going to be going into art. I was tunnel visioned, you know?

Paul Thurrott (07:16):
And so I kind of realized at that point, I need to learn, you know, I need to formally somehow learn, you know? And so I went back to school and then I read. Back then everything was books. All the knowledge of our industry was in books. And for me it was programming, it was not going to be journalism, but you know, that’s the path that I kind of chose, but you know, I remember it was January, 1998, I only know, because my wife was pregnant with our first child and we were in Florida for a wedding and I was carting these giant SQL Server books. One was the, certification book. Back then you would do Microsoft certifications. That was how you kind of proved your knowledge of any individual topic.

Paul Thurrott (08:01):
One of them was the programming end and the other one was the the IT Administration end. And I wasn’t really sure which direction I wanted to go, as it turns out I never went in either direction, but you know, you get those comments from people at the time. Cause these books were, you know, Bible sized, humongous things. And it’s like, Oh, a little light reading there, you know? And well, yeah, I mean, you know, at the time that was it. The nice thing about today is that you don’t, well, first of all, certifications are kind of on the outs as it is, but there is so much knowledge online in video form or in written form. So much of it is free. There are nano degrees you can get from different, you know, educational institutions, online, very particular topics, whether it’s programming related, which is what I’m still very much interested in, or IT related of all stripes, you know?

Paul Thurrott (08:48):
And that to me is just the best, because you know, it’s one thing you drive down to a Borders or which doesn’t exist anymore or Barnes and Noble, and you pick a pick up a giant certification book in whatever Microsoft related topic that you’re interested in. That may or may not be good, you know, $60 later, you know, who knows and you’ve wasted some time maybe. And whereas, you know, with the online stuff, you can sample it. Even if it’s a paid course or a degree of some kind, you can get a feel for what it’s like. I’ve paid for lots and lots of online courses actually. And I’ve done lots of free ones as well. You know, it’s so nice that that stuff’s available. But to your point, I guess to your question is you know, how do you find time? So here’s an interesting thing about COVID that is semi positive, maybe. Like you I’ve been working from home for decades, right. So I’m kind of amused at all these young guys who are like,

Mary Jo Foley (09:41):
Young whippersnappers.

Paul Thurrott (09:43):
I’ve been home for weeks, here’s some ideas what I learned, you know? So but here’s what I’ve always thought about working from home is it’s a little more honest than going into an office because when you’re in an office, you spend a lot of time talking to other people, which is great. There’s benefit to that for sure. But you’re interrupting people. You’re interrupting workflow, you’re appearing to be busy because you’re there from nine to five. People expect you to work. If you’re over there playing a video game in the corner, someone’s going to call you out on it. And that’s the way it is. And I always sort of felt like working from home was a little more honest because the reality is you do X number of hours of hard, deep work, whatever you want to call it in a day. And then you kind of, you can check in throughout the day, but when you’re at home, you know that you can run errands, you can do laundry, you can cook, you know, get dinner started or whatever.

Paul Thurrott (10:26):
And it’s a little more honest. And so I structure mine and granted my job is particular, what I do. Like you, I mean, we have similar jobs, but I structure my day such that in the mornings, especially I’m kind of heads down writing, in the afternoon is when I have other projects. And I’m always connected. I’m always, you know, if anything happens, I’m there. I can turn to whatever, you know, to the computer and start writing if I have to, but it’s a little less structured and that’s the time I’ve set aside for what I’ve been learning during the pandemic, which is various programming topics. But it could be, obviously it could be IT related. It could be whatever, I could learn to play the guitar, I guess if I wanted to. But

Mary Jo Foley (11:05):
Exactly. How do you kind of narrow your focus? Because I feel like if you just say, wow, there is so much out there, right? Like there’s unlimited free courses or certifications you can get for cheap or free. Like, how do you figure out how to not be overwhelmed?

Paul Thurrott (11:22):
I am always overwhelmed. So in my particular case, so, I mean, I guess if you could take what I’m trying to learn and cast it into more of an IT kind of a role, because it’s very similar. If you think about programming projects or whatever over the pandemic, I’ve been looking at various you know, Microsoft related programming things. And then I’ve switched my attention more recently to, you know, web and Flutter, which is a cross platform kind of a thing. But you know, you seek this stuff out. There are articles on Medium that I read, I subscribe to Medium or pay for Medium, there’s YouTube videos, which some of which are incredible. There are formal courses at various places and there are books. There are actually some books I bought a Kindle book about Flutter actually.

Paul Thurrott (12:05):
And you know, between these things, you can kind of find the thing that works for you and by thing, I mean the type of learning, some people learn, I think more by reading, some people learn more from video. I like repetition. I mean, one of the nice things is if I’m doing, if I’m just kind of zoning out, I can replay something I’ve already listened to. And to me, it’s, the more it goes through my brain, you know, the better it is. And of course, hands on I think IT and programming alike. I mean, you have to do the work. I mean, so you can’t just digest content. You also have to work at, you know, creating programs in my case or whatever.

Mary Jo Foley (12:40):
Right. I think one interesting thing I know that you also do is in your off hours, quote, unquote off hours it feels like all our hours are on or off these days. Right. you also do other kinds of learning, right? Like I know you do Duolingo language lessons, and you listen to a lot of audio books and some of the audio books, I know you listen to are things that I would consider work. But for you, they’re fun. So you know, how did you figure out they’re like what you want to spend your downtime on? Because I feel like in some ways what you do in your downtime inspires and motivates your uptime and your work time.

Paul Thurrott (13:21):
Right. Well, I think you know, like we gravitate obviously towards the things we are interested in or like, or whatever. And you know, the language learning thing was nice. Cause, I mean back when we were still in Boston, my wife and I had used to go into Boston and take French classes at the French Institute, you know it’s consuming it’s 30 minutes on a train, 20 minute car ride, a 20 minute walk and then an hour class. And then all of a sudden, your entire day has gone and it’s only once a week or maybe it’s twice a week. And it’s not really, you kind of need a little bit more than that. And for me, it just so happened that something like Duolingo makes sense, but I can’t sit here and speak to you fluently in Spanish, but it’s you know what I’m looking for is what I call, you know, menu language.

Paul Thurrott (14:01):
So I can go into a foreign country and read the menu and not need any help, which is nice. So that was just kind of a goal that I’ve had for a long time. And that just happens to be what worked for me. And so over time it kind of moves in that direction, but like you know I don’t commute to work, right. My commute is walking down some stairs. And so there’s not a lot of time there for short reading. I have time set aside in the morning to read mostly news and then you know, for me, I go to the gym. So I, listen to the audio books and that stuff at the gym, or if I’m not going to a gym, if I’m walking, it would be that time. And so you have to kind of set aside the time.

Paul Thurrott (14:42):
I feel like all of us, I fall into this trap. We’re also busy, but we also really do have time to get things done that are important to us, you know, and we all have decisions to make. You know, the agreement I have with my wife is that at eight o’clock, we watch TV together during the week. But that means before eight o’clock that’s my time. So I stop working usually around five, not really right. I mean, you know, if work is whatever, but I’m spending time on those things that I care about between five and well we eat dinner, of course. But I usually have an hour or two even between dinner. You know, that together time and I try to spend that time doing that kind of stuff.

Mary Jo Foley (15:27):
I feel like you are very much more, I don’t want to use the word regimented, but you break your day into bite sized things. Like you talk about having time for dedicated work and time for this, you know, kind of personal growth study kind of thing. I feel like I’m just terrible at that. And I feel like, I don’t structure my time that way, and maybe that’s to my detriment, but I wonder if there’s ways that people who are more disorganized, like me, could kind of take some lessons from that.

Paul Thurrott (16:01):
First of all, I mean, part of what I do is compulsive to some degree. So, I don’t necessarily think that people should try to be more compulsive, but, you know, structuring your day accordingly and look everyone’s day is different. Some people are morning people, some people are night people, et cetera, I’m more of a night person. And I get up, I make a point now I get up early and I walk the dog and I hate it. I hate it. Like every day I want to put this thing off. I hate it. It’s just not my kind of a thing. But I think, you know, unfortunately there’s no one thing that works for everybody. So I evolved this over time. I know for myself that no matter what time I get up that first four hours is my prime time for focus and I can write.

Paul Thurrott (16:42):
And if I’m not interrupted by phone calls back in the day or these days, you know, Skype messages, whatever, I can crank through a lot, I have days when I write an astronomical number of words. And, a lot of that happens at that time, not in the afternoon. And so, but you know, someone else, they may have the opposite schedule. It may be a different thing. You know, I used to, I worked in banking for several years. I used to take time at lunch and read up on programming topics, same thing, Bible sized, you know, Charles Petzold book about programming Windows that people used to make fun of at the bank.

Mary Jo Foley (17:14):
Who’s laughing now though?

Paul Thurrott (17:14):
That was right. I told you. But yeah, actually, well, I don’t know, who knows. I’m glad I’m not in banking. Let’s put it that way, but you know, our schedules, everyone has different schedules and everyone’s different. And I think you need to just figure out what works for you. So it’s the same thing with the types of things you use, whether it’s a book or a video or an online course or whatever. It’s some combination of video and hands on stuff, whatever, you know, you need to, unfortunately you have to do a little bit of work to kind of figure out what works best you.

Mary Jo Foley (17:50):
Definitely. So I’m going to ask you a question that everyone asks you and me all the time. I’m guessing, I’m guessing they ask you this. Cause they ask me this, how do you stay current with the rapidly shifting tech landscape? Right. People are always like, okay, how do you, how are you, like on top of things so much because I’m like you, I only cover Microsoft. Right. And it’s still hard to stay on top of everything because they’re in so many pies and things are changing so fast. Like TikTok’s on TikTok’s off. Yes, no, yes, no. Right. So how do you do it? How do you stay up to date with what’s changing?

Paul Thurrott (18:27):
Yeah. So it’s funny that’s evolved over time, as you would expect. In fact, the way I got into this industry in a way is I was working and going to school at a community college in Arizona. And we used to get these industry publications, you remember like PC Week and Information Week.

Mary Jo Foley (18:44):
I used to write for them, yes.

Paul Thurrott (18:44):
Yes. We used to get, and they were kind of like mini newspapers almost, you know, they were, they had kind of that large format style and they were, you know, thinner but big things. And I would flip through them and I would find this stuff that was interesting. And I would kind of send out an email to people in the department, Hey, these guys wrote this thing and this is why I think this is important. You need to read this. And I, the modern version of that, what I do today is kind of a combination of old school stuff.

Paul Thurrott (19:09):
Like I still use an RSS feed, which I think is pretty unusual for people these days. Okay. I find that works really well. I mean, obviously you get email, right. For people and sources or Microsoft directly will email us. Twitter has emerged as a great place for up to the second news. And I will say, you know, you and I did, we did a presentation at least once. And it was kind of, it was for older people in the industry and how, you know, you shouldn’t be made to feel bad because you’re older and you are the experienced one, remember that. And I remember the guy kind of said, you know, when you guys aren’t ripping on young people you know, something to that nature, which was funny, but, and we didn’t intend it to be like that.

Paul Thurrott (19:48):
But I will say, you know, working with younger people like Brad and Mehedi, especially who’s off now and hopefully will come back, but you know, I’ve also learned from how younger people work because they seem to jump onto these newer things more quickly than I would, if ever, you know. I don’t know how you feel about podcasts for example, but like I would never have started a podcast. I was invited to do Windows Weekly. It’s not something that ever would have occurred to me, so I kind of backed into it. But I mostly, I would say it’s a combination of, we have sources and people like us who do the jobs like we do, who we keep in touch with each other. That’s how I met Brad, through you. We have email obviously and RSS, which are kind of old school, you know, ways of doing things, but they still work great. And I think Twitter, you know, is the big one. I don’t sit there with Twitter on a second screen, like a dashboard, with multiple columns. To me, that’s a lot of noise, but then again, I do spend time manually switching between those columns in a single view. That’s my style. You know, I am certainly stuck in my ways in some ways.

Mary Jo Foley (21:00):
Okay. Speaking of stuck, nice segue there. Thanks. So, okay. When you are stuck, when you’re just like not motivated and you’re really stuck and you’re like, I need to work, I need to do this. I need to do that. How do you get unstuck? And I’m guessing part of this is a Call of Duty answer, but maybe not.

Paul Thurrott (21:23):
Yeah, it is. But I would generalize it because literally, and this is just, this is almost psychology or I don’t know, it’s almost like a, just a self help topic. Everyone has experienced this. You’re stuck with some problem. You can’t figure it out. Why won’t this thing go together? I can’t screw it together. Doesn’t work. Or why can’t I figure out the problem, whatever it is. And then you step away and you’re in the shower, you’re at the supermarket, you’re asleep and all of a sudden, Oh, that’s the answer.

Mary Jo Foley (21:52):
Yeah.

Paul Thurrott (21:52):
The answer to unsticking yourself is to to step away from it and not be in front of it. And that could be literally playing Call of Duty. One of the reasons I play video games is not just to play video games. I mean, there are all kinds of video games, but these games are five or seven minutes a piece.

Paul Thurrott (22:08):
And if something happens, I can just end the game. I don’t care. I don’t have to be part of that. And I can’t tell you how many times I’ve been staring at a screen of, you know, video game mayhem or whatever. And I’ve been, ah, that’s it, that’s the thing. Or it’s even as simple as that’s the word I was looking for, for a sentence. That’s the segue I needed to make this make sense. Sometimes, unfortunately it happens. I’m walking out on the trail and I’m a mile from home and it’s, dammit I’m too far away, but or I’ll be at the gym or in the car, you know going on an errand or something. So, yeah, I mean, that’s just, this is not like a super deep IT question or answer. It’s really, sometimes you have to step away. And I gotta say again, you know, if you’re looking for a silver lining to, COVID one of the nice things, I think we’re going to reset the way we do things. More people are going to work from home, not everybody, but more, and people might split up time between work and home for work related stuff. I think it’s going to give people the ability to say, it’s okay to zone out, take a nap in the afternoon, you know, or whatever. This is the type of stuff that would be completely unacceptable in many workplaces where someone’s always near.

Mary Jo Foley (23:19):
Yes, it would. I’m thinking of people. I actually found someone napping when I worked at ZDNet under the copy machine. And yeah, it was unacceptable.

Paul Thurrott (23:31):
But, you know what that person was probably doing well by themselves.

Mary Jo Foley (23:33):
Yes, they were. I just shut the door and let them keep sleeping and then came in an half hour and woke them up before anyone else found them. Okay. Last question. So we’ve talked kind of around this, but favorite resources. So we talked about Duolingo, we mentioned that, I think you also are a big fan of Khan Academy if I recall, but, if you’re just throwing out some resources and saying, you know, what if you’re just like, I don’t even know where to begin. What are some places you would suggest people look?

Paul Thurrott (24:03):
So I would divide these between programming and IT, I guess. Right. So I’m really interested in that stuff. You Udacity, Coursera, Udemy are the big ones for me. Udemy in particular. They have, Udemy is funny because they’ll have this class, it’s like, it’s normally 250 bucks, but it’s only $16. It’s always $16, you know? So, some of their classes are really inexpensive. It’s neat. And like, that’s really nice, you know, on the IT side, if you haven’t, I mean, they keep changing, you know, Microsoft Virtual Academy was the thing for awhile. Microsoft Learn, which is part of the Microsoft Docs website. So I think it’s just docs.microsoft.com/learn probably is an amazing resource. The former Lynda.com, which is now I think LinkedIn Learning, right is the other big one. But again, you know, these are the formal places, right?

Paul Thurrott (24:52):
These are literal classes. Sometimes they’re classes on a schedule, you have to sign up, it starts on a certain date. You do a certain amount of work each week, and it ends at a certain date and you get some kind of recognition if you finish it. But I really think some of the informal stuff, or even, you know, Udacity is a place where that you can pay a lot of money actually for a Nanodegree, but they also have these free courses. And it’s kind of a neat way just to get in on a topic and figure out for yourself whether or not you want to go in that direction, you know, and not spend any money. So there’s just a ton of that kind of stuff.

Mary Jo Foley (25:25):
Great. Well, thanks. I actually learned a lot and maybe I’ll even use some of this in my own journey.

Paul Thurrott (25:34):
Maybe you’ll play Call of Duty.

Mary Jo Foley (25:34):
No, let’s not go that far. But yeah, maybe, you know, I always threatened to do this. I’m like, I should take a programming course just to see, because I’ve never tried it and maybe I would like it.

Paul Thurrott (25:46):
I will add, I think you’d be good at it because the really interesting thing in this industry where a lot of people involved in personal technology as a career are musicians are cooks, like you are, are programmers, right? And these things they’re all actually, when you think about it, I mean, a recipe and creating a food item out of a recipe is very much like creating a program.

Mary Jo Foley (26:10):
True. Yeah. That’s very true.

Paul Thurrott (26:12):
Musician, same thing. You know, there’s a lot of a lot of overlap between these,

Mary Jo Foley (26:16):
Beer brewing another area.

Paul Thurrott (26:18):
No, that’s true. Beer brewing, also distillery or wine-making these are all the same wheelhouse really.

Mary Jo Foley (26:25):
That’s really true. All right. Well, thank you so much for doing this, Paul. I really appreciate you carving out some of your day, just for us.

Paul Thurrott (26:33):
Yeah, this is normally my unstructured time, it was a little structured,

Mary Jo Foley (26:37):
I know, little Call of Duty intrusion I’m sure. And for everyone else who’s been watching and listening I will be posting information very soon on Petri.com about who my next guest will be. And you can submit questions directly on Twitter for that guest, if you would like. And in the meantime, if you know of anybody else who you’d like to see do one of these MJF chats with me, even yourself, please do not hesitate to drop me a note.

Paul Thurrott (27:01):
You can nominate yourself.

Mary Jo Foley (27:02):
You can nominate yourself. And everyone will win. So thanks. Thanks again. And thanks everyone for watching.

Paul Thurrott (27:09):
Thank you.

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